Aerodynamic Torque

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Younes.Aitelmaati
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Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:42 am

Hello ,

I wanted to reproduce Aerodynamic Torque from mesures given by FAST :

J_Rotor * RotAccel + RotTorq*1000 = T_aero and it didnt give me like T_aero= 0.5*1.225*pi*(R^3)*RotCq*TotWindV .

If you have an idea about that ?

Sincerely .

Jason.Jonkman
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:38 am

Dear Younes,

First of all, your equation for T_Aero should involve the wind speed squared.

Your equations assume some important simplifications of your FAST model:
*The rotor is rigid (so, J_Rotor is constant). That is, FlapDOF1 = FlapDOF2 = EdgeDOF in FAST.
*The support structure is rigid (so, the rotor acceleration is solely related to RotAccel. That is, most structural DOFs in FAST are disabled.
*The aerodynamic loads are computed quasi-steadily. That is, StallMod = STEADY and InfModel = EQUIL in AeroDyn.

Your equation should work with these simplifications.

More information about the drivetrain model in FAST is available in the following forum topic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=525 (in this forum post, RotTorq is identified as LSShftTq; both are equivalent).

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:56 am

Thank you Jason for your precious reply ,

What can you advise me to use as Taero in my work : Taero = 0.5*1.225*Cq*Wind^2*R^3 or that calculated from FAST Taero = Jr*RotAccel + Shaft_Torque ?

Which expression is translating reality ?

Best regards .

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
Location: Morocco

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:47 am

Dear Jason ,

I did what you requested me , and i found that the two torques are equal in steady state , but different in transient regime . So i suppose that maybe if there is no acceleration effect , equations are equals , and this can be traduced as :

- Maybe the problem is in the value of acceleration RotAccel

- Maybe in the inertie Jrotor (i take it from .fsm file )

Sincerely

Jason.Jonkman
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:58 am

Dear Younes,

Your equation for Taero is now missing the pi.

Both equations are valid for steady-state. I'm not sure what problem you are referring to in the transient regime and I can't advise you which to use because I don't know what you want Taero for.

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
Location: Morocco

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:30 am

Dear Jason ,

The problem im facing in the transient regime is that : Taero given by the equation Jr*RotAccel + LSShftTq is higher than Taero given by 0.5*Ro*Pi*(R^3)*(V^2)*RotCq when RotAccel is not equal to zero .

But they have the same forme and they are equal in mean value when there is no acceleration .

I have found also that Jr*RotAccel + LSShftTq is the one who is producing rotation of the turbine and not 0.5*Ro*Pi*(R^3)*(V^2)*RotCq .

Logicaly , both should be equal in every instant however the conditions ...


Sincerely .

Jason.Jonkman
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:24 am

Dear Younes,

Ah, now I think I understand the problem. Output RotCq from FAST is only an estimate of the aerodynamic torque coefficient; it is derived from LSShftTq (which includes the inertial effects of rotor acceleration/decceleration), not the pure aerodynamic torque. That is, 0.5*rho*pi*(R^3)*(V^2)*RotCq = LSShftTq. So, in transient conditions, Jr*RotAccel + LSShftTq is the better estimate of the pure aerodynamic torque. But--from my Apr 07, 2014 post above--this equation still assumes that the rotor and support structure are rigid.

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
Location: Morocco

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:46 am

Thank you JAson for your precious reply ,

I want also to ask about : what does it mean a negative aerodynamic torque ?

sincerely

Jason.Jonkman
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 am

Dear Younes,

A negative aerodynamic torque means that the aerodynamic loads want to rotate the shaft opposite to its natural rotation.

What conditions are you getting a negative aerodynamic torque (what DOFs are enabled, what wind conditions are being used, is the rotor parked/idling)?

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
Location: Morocco

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:41 pm

Dear Jason ;

The aerodynamic torque is normal until a time in which it becomes negative for a duration , then it gets positive

I have this case when i use the folowing conditions :

- All DOFs are enabled (which is the reality )

- Turbulent wind

- Taero = LSShftTq + Jr*RotAccel

sincerely ,

Jason.Jonkman
Posts: 5737
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: Boulder, CO
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:01 am

Dear Younes,

From my Apr 07, 2014 post above, your equation for aerodynamic torque (Taero = LSShftTq + Jr*RotAccel) assumes that the rotor and support structure are rigid. But you have not made the rotor and support structure rigid in your simulation so your equation is only an estimate of the true aerodynamic torque. It may be that the aerodynamic torque remains positive even though your estimate is negative. It may also be that something in the turbulent wind field causes the aerodynamic torque to go negative for a brief moment.

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Younes.Aitelmaati
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:40 am
Organization: Cady ayyad university of Morocco
Location: Morocco

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Younes.Aitelmaati » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:08 am

Dear Jason , realy thank you for your replies ,

I reconstruct aerodynamic torque from measures (rotor speed) and i found that the Rotor turns not due to pure Taero , but due to Jr*RotAccel+RotTorque .

And so , Jr*RotAccel+RotTorque wan be called the usefull part of the whole pure aerodynamic torque created by the wind .

Are these two conclusions correct ?


Sincerely ,

Gianluca.Ippoliti
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Gianluca.Ippoliti » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:54 am

Dear Eng. Jonkman,

for the NREL 5-MW turbine, to estimate the aerodynamic torque assuming that the rotor and support structure are rigid, I use the equation "Taero =Jr*RotAccel + HSShftTq*GBRatio".

I have taken "RotAccel" and "HSShftTq" from Fast Output Parameters and GBRatio=97 .

How much is the value for "Jr"?

Can I consider "HSShftTq" and "RotAccel" as measures from sensors?

Thank you.

Best regards

Gianluca Ippoliti

Jason.Jonkman
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Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Jason.Jonkman » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:42 am

Dear Gianluca,

Yes, you can consider RotAccel and HSShftTq from the ElastoDyn output parameters (converted to consistent units).

The rotor inertia, Jr, for the NREL 5-MW turbine is written to the ElastoDyn summary file, Jr = 38677041 kg*m^2.

Please note that if you are using AeroDyn v15, Taero can be directly output via output parameter RtAeroMxh.

Best regards,
Jason Jonkman, Ph.D.
Senior Engineer | National Wind Technology Center (NWTC)

National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
15013 Denver West Parkway | Golden, CO 80401
+1 (303) 384 – 7026 | Fax: +1 (303) 384 – 6901
nwtc.nrel.gov

Gianluca.Ippoliti
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:57 am
Organization: Università Politecnica delle Marche
Location: Italy

Re: Aerodynamic Torque

Postby Gianluca.Ippoliti » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:15 am

Dear Jason,

many thanks

Best regards

Gianluca


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